Thursday, June 29, 2006
An Unapologetic Former Liberal
This is the first in a five part series of posts that document my brief time as a memeber of the Ann Coulter Online Community (ACOC). While I had spent a few days commenting on other threads, this is the first on that I started that I posted as a way to introduce myself.
ACOC Post 14 Jun 2006
I converted from liberalism to conservatism back in the 80's and have spent much of my time since then quietly going about the process of converting other liberals. I spent most of my efforts in liberal circles, including liberal BB's. I am not one of the 'drive-by' conservatives who flame liberals then move on. That activity doesn't gain converts. It's only about scoring points in some meaningless game.
I am subtle, and don't come off like I am trying to convert anyone. The funny thing is, all I do is introduce reason and logic into the discussion in the guise of just trying to help the cause, then picking off those who privately want to talk further. Liberalism cannot survive reason and logic. It's all about emotion and caring a lot.
I never much considered conservative BB's, because I thought it would be more about 'preaching to the choir,' which would just bore me. But after a week on this BB I see I was way wrong. It looks like I have a lot of things to write about. The groupthink I see here is just staggering.
The first thing I would like to write about are the other former liberals who feel they need to apologize. I have seen several posts of this nature here. Former liberals should have nothing to apologize for, unless they knowingly engaged in unethical behavior. If so, they should apologize for that, not for being liberal.
I personally would no more apologize for at one time being a liberal as I would apologize for at one time being a child. In both cases all I did was grow up... I matured, nothing more.
I say this because it is us former liberals who are going to have the greatest impact in converting other liberals to conservatism, and one the most significant ways that former liberals hamstring their efforts is by going in with an attitude that those they are trying to convert will also need to apologize.
When I converted from a liberal to a conservative I never changed who I was. I never stopped caring about the poor and marginalized of our society. Through careful analysis, I came to see that liberalism not only could not solve the problems of our society, it actually made things worse. This understanding is the basic building block that works in most cases with converting liberals. Get them to understand that if you really care about those you are trying to help, then you're going to have to engage in activities that actually work.
They key turning point for my political conversion was realizing that politics are not a person's core values. Politics are only part of how you express your core values. I think one of the more important distinctions between conservatism and a liberalism, is that a liberalism believes politics is the only legitimate expression of a person's core values.
So all you former liberals here, stop apologizing. There is nothing to be proud of in being a former liberal, but there is nothing to be ashamed of either. You have a perspective to politics that is needed now more than ever in the conservative movement. There have been some great strides in the conservative agenda as of late, but a lot of the arrogance that I see on display around here, if allowed to percolate out into the conservative community at large, could end up squandering those gains.
When I'm on the Liberal BB's and I read the hatred they're spewing; the grand conspiracies they are spinning; the self-congratulatory pats on their collective backs they give themselves on how smart they are, I just quietly chuckle to myself. I even egg it on it, because I know this is the breeding ground of their own destruction. (It really is quite amusing, although I only recommend trying it if you have a strong stomach)
I don't want paint everyone at this BB with a broad brush. There are enough replies here that show the real conservative ideology that I respect. If there wasn't any I wouldn't bother sticking around. Maybe I'm just a little sensitive because of where I spent a lot of my time before here, I just don't want to see the same mistakes made there happen here.
For the most part, the replies were very positive, and most had a 'Welcome aboard' theme to them. A few though, took issue with the accusatory nature of what I posted about my observation of groupthink. The following are representative comments that are shown to set up my replies
Put simply, it's believing what the group you identify with believes for the purpose of acceptance within that group. We like to consider ourselves as individuals, so it is very difficult to believe we are guilty of it, but we are all social beings, and engage in it to some degree. The question is, how much is too much?
The best way to spot the destructive variety is to look for things people write that are more for emotional appeal than intellectual enlightenment. It is often characterized by people "one uping" each other in what they are writing. The more "out there" they get with what they are writing, the more true to their beliefs they feel they are being. In fact, they are only engaging in self-deception, or groupthink. If your looking for an example of it at this BB, try the 'Ann is not a conservative' thread that I have been replying to.
Considering how much the liberals excoriate their Democratic leadership in their BBs, and how deeply and profoundly mired in groupthink that they are, I would not use the fact that you criticize the Republican party as any sign that you have not succumbed to it.
These replies did not placate him. So here are some more replies to his concerns.
We are not exchanging ideas for the sake of just exchanging ideas. This is a form of socializing, so it is a community. You don't have to agree with everything within a group to belong to it. You just have to want something out of it, and contribute something into it, in order to be part of it. The only people who are not part of this group are the flamers. They really don't care about anyone and what they believe. They just want to score points in some imaginary game going on in their heads.
I'm not completely sure I know what you mean by this, but I'll respond as if you feel that I have accused you of not thinking for yourself. First, I want to state that I did not accuse you specifically of groupthink. I only stated in my previous post that what you offered as evidence that you were not groupthinking wasn't valid. Second, even those engaged in groupthink are still thinking for themselves. They have simply made a choice that group praise is more import than constructive discourse.
As an example of what I mean by destructive discourse in the form of groupthink, check out the 'Why Ann Coulter is not a conservative' thread. Most of the people on this thread are hell bent on proving their uber-conservative status at a terrible cost. What they are doing is something that goes on regularly at the liberal BBs which is divide and conquer amongst our own. It's a sort of self-cannibalism that liberals have down as an art form.
It's bad enough that there are republican politicians that are distancing themselves from Ann, we don't need these guys making some ridiculous claim that Ann needs to be reclassified away from us also.
"United we stand, divided we fall"
"If we don't hang together, then we will certainly hang separately"
Someone noted what appeared to be a contradiction in what I originally posted.
The drive-by flamers are not interested in understanding any ones perspectives on the site. They do not want to work with anyone, they are just there to piss them off.
My 'egging them on' was done more to appear to be one of them. I wanted to appear to be delving into their groupthink. If you don't, you will never be taken seriously. Any one who appears 'wish-washy' in their liberalism is at best dismissed, at worst excoriated. Although I will admit I found it all very amusing.
It is because of this activity that I believe I have gained an insight on what groupthink is all about.
Quite a few replies warned me to be aware of the Libertarians out looking for converts. Here's how I replied to one of them.
Been there -- Done that -- Didn't last long
When the Republican Governor of California, Pete Wilson, signed the mandatory motorcycle helmet law I promptly renounced my Republican party affiliation and joined the Libertarian party. I had been studying them for sometime, and they seemed like a good alternative. I had to sign some statement that said something to the effect that I could not advocate the initiation of force (or something like that), but I didn't think much of it at the time. I wasn't inclined to use force to achieve political objectives, so it seemed safe enough.
For a few months I was having a good time at the monthly meetings discussing politics (this was in the pre-BB days), until the first Gulf War hit. I of course was for it, and when I brought it up for discussion I was slammed down. I was then rudely reminded that I had signed a statement that I could not advocate the use of force. So that was that as far as they were concerned.
They were a bunch of loons as far as I was concerned. I left the party then and there, and have not looked back.
Continue with part 2 of 5
ACOC Post 14 Jun 2006
I converted from liberalism to conservatism back in the 80's and have spent much of my time since then quietly going about the process of converting other liberals. I spent most of my efforts in liberal circles, including liberal BB's. I am not one of the 'drive-by' conservatives who flame liberals then move on. That activity doesn't gain converts. It's only about scoring points in some meaningless game.
I am subtle, and don't come off like I am trying to convert anyone. The funny thing is, all I do is introduce reason and logic into the discussion in the guise of just trying to help the cause, then picking off those who privately want to talk further. Liberalism cannot survive reason and logic. It's all about emotion and caring a lot.
I never much considered conservative BB's, because I thought it would be more about 'preaching to the choir,' which would just bore me. But after a week on this BB I see I was way wrong. It looks like I have a lot of things to write about. The groupthink I see here is just staggering.
The first thing I would like to write about are the other former liberals who feel they need to apologize. I have seen several posts of this nature here. Former liberals should have nothing to apologize for, unless they knowingly engaged in unethical behavior. If so, they should apologize for that, not for being liberal.
I personally would no more apologize for at one time being a liberal as I would apologize for at one time being a child. In both cases all I did was grow up... I matured, nothing more.
I say this because it is us former liberals who are going to have the greatest impact in converting other liberals to conservatism, and one the most significant ways that former liberals hamstring their efforts is by going in with an attitude that those they are trying to convert will also need to apologize.
When I converted from a liberal to a conservative I never changed who I was. I never stopped caring about the poor and marginalized of our society. Through careful analysis, I came to see that liberalism not only could not solve the problems of our society, it actually made things worse. This understanding is the basic building block that works in most cases with converting liberals. Get them to understand that if you really care about those you are trying to help, then you're going to have to engage in activities that actually work.
They key turning point for my political conversion was realizing that politics are not a person's core values. Politics are only part of how you express your core values. I think one of the more important distinctions between conservatism and a liberalism, is that a liberalism believes politics is the only legitimate expression of a person's core values.
So all you former liberals here, stop apologizing. There is nothing to be proud of in being a former liberal, but there is nothing to be ashamed of either. You have a perspective to politics that is needed now more than ever in the conservative movement. There have been some great strides in the conservative agenda as of late, but a lot of the arrogance that I see on display around here, if allowed to percolate out into the conservative community at large, could end up squandering those gains.
When I'm on the Liberal BB's and I read the hatred they're spewing; the grand conspiracies they are spinning; the self-congratulatory pats on their collective backs they give themselves on how smart they are, I just quietly chuckle to myself. I even egg it on it, because I know this is the breeding ground of their own destruction. (It really is quite amusing, although I only recommend trying it if you have a strong stomach)
I don't want paint everyone at this BB with a broad brush. There are enough replies here that show the real conservative ideology that I respect. If there wasn't any I wouldn't bother sticking around. Maybe I'm just a little sensitive because of where I spent a lot of my time before here, I just don't want to see the same mistakes made there happen here.
For the most part, the replies were very positive, and most had a 'Welcome aboard' theme to them. A few though, took issue with the accusatory nature of what I posted about my observation of groupthink. The following are representative comments that are shown to set up my replies
churchill72 wrote:
Please define "groupthink."
Put simply, it's believing what the group you identify with believes for the purpose of acceptance within that group. We like to consider ourselves as individuals, so it is very difficult to believe we are guilty of it, but we are all social beings, and engage in it to some degree. The question is, how much is too much?
The best way to spot the destructive variety is to look for things people write that are more for emotional appeal than intellectual enlightenment. It is often characterized by people "one uping" each other in what they are writing. The more "out there" they get with what they are writing, the more true to their beliefs they feel they are being. In fact, they are only engaging in self-deception, or groupthink. If your looking for an example of it at this BB, try the 'Ann is not a conservative' thread that I have been replying to.
churchill72 wrote:
In short, if you are defining "groupthink" as a mindless, kneejerk support for the republican party...its not to be had here.
Considering how much the liberals excoriate their Democratic leadership in their BBs, and how deeply and profoundly mired in groupthink that they are, I would not use the fact that you criticize the Republican party as any sign that you have not succumbed to it.
These replies did not placate him. So here are some more replies to his concerns.
churchill72 wrote:
Im also not sure about how well that definition of groupthink applies to any "online community" as the "people" here are nothing more than "posts" in an electronic "thread." I know none of them personally...
We are not exchanging ideas for the sake of just exchanging ideas. This is a form of socializing, so it is a community. You don't have to agree with everything within a group to belong to it. You just have to want something out of it, and contribute something into it, in order to be part of it. The only people who are not part of this group are the flamers. They really don't care about anyone and what they believe. They just want to score points in some imaginary game going on in their heads.
churchill72 wrote:
I can assure you that my conservative worldview predated my ever finding, registering and posting in the Ann Coulter forums.
I'm not completely sure I know what you mean by this, but I'll respond as if you feel that I have accused you of not thinking for yourself. First, I want to state that I did not accuse you specifically of groupthink. I only stated in my previous post that what you offered as evidence that you were not groupthinking wasn't valid. Second, even those engaged in groupthink are still thinking for themselves. They have simply made a choice that group praise is more import than constructive discourse.
As an example of what I mean by destructive discourse in the form of groupthink, check out the 'Why Ann Coulter is not a conservative' thread. Most of the people on this thread are hell bent on proving their uber-conservative status at a terrible cost. What they are doing is something that goes on regularly at the liberal BBs which is divide and conquer amongst our own. It's a sort of self-cannibalism that liberals have down as an art form.
It's bad enough that there are republican politicians that are distancing themselves from Ann, we don't need these guys making some ridiculous claim that Ann needs to be reclassified away from us also.
"United we stand, divided we fall"
"If we don't hang together, then we will certainly hang separately"
Someone noted what appeared to be a contradiction in what I originally posted.
desertdink wrote:perl10 wrote:
...I am not one of the 'drive-by' conservatives who flame liberals then move on. That activity doesn't gain converts. It's only about scoring points in some meaningless game...
...I even egg it on it, because I know this is the breeding ground of their own destruction. (It really is quite amusing, although I only recommend trying it if you have a strong stomach)...
So...which is it? These are seemingly contradictory motives of thoughtful conversion and goading of liberal idiots.
The drive-by flamers are not interested in understanding any ones perspectives on the site. They do not want to work with anyone, they are just there to piss them off.
My 'egging them on' was done more to appear to be one of them. I wanted to appear to be delving into their groupthink. If you don't, you will never be taken seriously. Any one who appears 'wish-washy' in their liberalism is at best dismissed, at worst excoriated. Although I will admit I found it all very amusing.
It is because of this activity that I believe I have gained an insight on what groupthink is all about.
Quite a few replies warned me to be aware of the Libertarians out looking for converts. Here's how I replied to one of them.
Been there -- Done that -- Didn't last long
When the Republican Governor of California, Pete Wilson, signed the mandatory motorcycle helmet law I promptly renounced my Republican party affiliation and joined the Libertarian party. I had been studying them for sometime, and they seemed like a good alternative. I had to sign some statement that said something to the effect that I could not advocate the initiation of force (or something like that), but I didn't think much of it at the time. I wasn't inclined to use force to achieve political objectives, so it seemed safe enough.
For a few months I was having a good time at the monthly meetings discussing politics (this was in the pre-BB days), until the first Gulf War hit. I of course was for it, and when I brought it up for discussion I was slammed down. I was then rudely reminded that I had signed a statement that I could not advocate the use of force. So that was that as far as they were concerned.
They were a bunch of loons as far as I was concerned. I left the party then and there, and have not looked back.
Continue with part 2 of 5
Comments:
<< Home
dad, i love your writings... its so much fun to read your ideas, plus you tend to make a lot sence...
Post a Comment
# posted by 
: 12:55 PM
: 12:55 PM << Home
